i’ve been wrestling with the whole concept of the Church/God vs. Homosexuality for quite some time. i’ve journaled about this- i’m not one to share my journal entries, so this is a “new” entrie so to speak.
as many of you may or may not know, i grew up in a gay household. my mother is a lesbian and her partner is too (obviously). they were together for 16 years, from the time i was starting school to when i started college. they didn’t atted the gay pride parades (they thought that they were distasteful), they didn’t flaunt their sexuality, there weren’t any public displays of affection, no outward talk of being Gay or what it meant to be gay. when i was young i just knew i had 2 women who loved me and would take care of me no matter what. which is more than i can say about some friends who had a normal ‘nuclear families’.
then i hear about God, i hear rev. Phelps. i hear GOD HATES FAGS. and that being GAY was a slight against God. i thought God was all loving, i thought God forgave. i thought a lot of things. which is one of the reasons i had turned away.
i know in the OT God spoke out against homosexuality, and it was one of the reasons that Soddom and Gemmorah was destroyed (never mind the rape, murder and all the other stuff going on there God HATED FAGS right?) the thing that always got me is in the NT, Christ Jesus never spoke out about it. at least not in my translation (NIV). i’ve heard arguments that Christ spoke about many things that didn’t make it into the Bible. well, that may be true, but we only have what is in the Word. the rest is conjecture. as a follower of Christ, i believe in the Greatest commandments. “Love the Lord with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, and all your strength. and Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” pretty good huh? doesn’t say anything about hating FAGS now does it.
then the governement tries, and has passed laws (mostly on the state level) ammending what ‘marriage’ is and what it isn’t. “marriage is the union between One MAN and One WOMAN” pat robertson said. but when i read my Bible, i see that King David who was a man after God’s heart had MANY WIVES AND CONCUBINES?! so did Moses, and many other Biblical figures. so where did that change?
who decided that it’s ok to still hate or discriminate against one yet condemn another? who decides which OT laws are ok to follow and which ones are ok to leave by the wayside? this i believe is where Christ came in and regulated. He didn’t throw out all of the Laws Moses put down charged from God, He just highlighted the ones that were most importatnt. God is God, He can and has changed His mind on things, it’s His perogative. i mean, come on, He’s God, He can pretty much do what He wants.
my thing is, love is love no matter what shape it manifests itself in. maybe i’m wrong. but i think that God does forgive, He does want us to follow His son, He does want us to find our mate.
i had a theory that in the OT days, Homosexuality was a blight because God needed us to populate the earth. well how populous does the earth need to be? many people think the earth is overpopulated enough as it is. there are billions on billions of people here, more than our resources can handle.
so maybe, just maybe, God programmed in us- certain folks who had no reason to procreate. maybe, just maybe, God ingrained a ‘gay gene’ into our DNA. which brings me to another point- i have many gay friends. all who claim to have known they were gay well before the age of starting to be interested in the opposite sex. one close friend said she always preferred to play sports and with toy cars to playing house and with barbies. there is something deeper going on here. so entertain this thought:
if being gay is a ‘choice’, why would someone choose a lifestyle that would bring on hatred, contempt, separation from family, bigotry, and violence- just to be a contrarian, to be different. doesn’t make sense does it?
it’s like asking a black guy why he chose to be black? it isn’t a choice. it is just how God made him, isn’t it?
i entertain you to think about these questions i’ve brought up. please feel free to comment, but please be respectful- i will delete any hatespeech. so please if you have any further insight, i’d love to hear your thoughts.
peace.
r~
April 29, 2008 at 7:54 pm |
Dude,
Long time since your last post, and then you drop this topic on us. Tough one.
Here’s what I found on a quick NT search on biblegateway.net. I’m fairly certain there are others, but time doesn’t permit me to do a search on homosexuallity/sexual immorality while I have 5th grade band students in the room.
1 Corinthians 6: 9-11
9 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Pretty harsh stuff, especially if I plug myself into some of those things. I’ve been sexually immoral, an idolater, a thief, greedy, drunk, and slanderous. I’ve been most of the things in these verses.
The freedom comes in verse 11. If I plug myself into the condemning portion of these verses, I must also plug myself into verse 11 as well.
I am washed, I am sanctified, I am justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
I am a sinner. I stuggle with a lot of stuff. You are a sinner, and struggle with a lot of stuff. Your mother and her partner are sinners and struggle with a lot of stuff. When it comes to sin, we all fall short.
It’s like Chris said this past weekend. We need to “repent”, turn around and walk the other way from our sin. If it was easy, I would be thin. I am not, so I’ll turn around and walk the other way again tomorrow, and the next day, and again the next day, until finally I won’t have to turn away any more. Until I completely and totally trust God with it, I’ll stay fat, selfish, (insert Doug’s sin here).
I have struggled trying to understand the heart of God on spedifically this issue. I’ve just layed out for you where I am today. God may reveal something new to me tomorrow, perhaps even through this conversation.
I love the fact that you open yourself up like this.
Love ya brother!
d.
April 29, 2008 at 8:49 pm |
Well, here we find ourselves again, a tale as old as time: to hate or not to hate? To justify or not to justify? Ultimately, I find the “choice versus genetics” argument to be to limiting in scope: whether or not it is a choice, it is no one’s position to judge. So what if someone does choose to be gay? Is it then all of a sudden justified to segregate, to abuse, to relegate them to second-class citizens? No, not in America, not in the country I hear everyone talking about but don’t see too much of: this elusive magical place where everyone is treated fairly (unless they are gay or of color), where everyone is respected (unless they are women or elderly), where we are judged by our character (unless we are handicap).
I have grown so tired of debating the what the Bible says about gays; but I am glad you used your blog to work out your position on it, especially since you are a follower of Christ. Sure the Bible is mysterious at best and hypocritical at worst, but aren’t all religions? Aren’t their mysterious moments the ones that make their followers use their brains, make them strive for greatness?
The Bible is not my holy book, and I have come to terms with its “position” on homosexuality: when I tried to sift thorough it I found it to be misread, mishandled, misinterpreted. But ultimately, it is none of my business.
April 29, 2008 at 8:54 pm |
PS: You don’t have to send me texts to let me know you posted a blog: I check this thing more than you do.
April 30, 2008 at 12:01 am |
1 Corinthians 7 talks tons about husbands and wives, wives and husbands. Divorce is bad, etc. I’d check that out before I put too much into what Pat Robertson or Rev. Phelps has to say. They’re sinners just like you and I, only more famous.
You mentioned that God “can and has changed His mind”. Help me out. I’m not following you.
There’s a lot in your post brother, I’m just sifting through it and trying to understand what your going through. Feel free to call or email if you’d like to go off line with some of it.
April 30, 2008 at 2:16 pm |
PPS: did you check out my alt. rock post yet?
http://adjurnedtoafrozenriver.blogspot.com/
you’ll know it when you see it, it’s the “pelican” post three posts down or so on the page.
May 1, 2008 at 5:00 am |
Just thought I’d ramble a bit…
I’m pretty sure “God hates fags” is inaccurate to say the least. If God is going to name call, he’d use “son” or “daughter”. I know God loves people to the point that an enormous sacrifice was made to ensure people can be with him. I know that salvation comes from Jesus and although it was costly to him(death), it’s free for us. ALL sin was paid for on the cross when Jesus died. Did I say ALL? The issue then is, is homosexuality one of those sins? Which seems to be the debate.
I do believe homosexuality is not God’s design for sexual relations as the bible does state his aversion to the behavior. Now if someone doesn’t believe in the bible, that statement means nothing. I also believe it is a chosen desire. Being tempted or intrigued by homosexual acts doesn’t necessarily mean one is gay. I think what our society has done over the last 15 years or so is to call any temptation or desire, a defining moment in someone’s life. So if a teen desires sex before marriage and is tempted, does he/she HAVE to have sex just because the urge is there? What if a teen has homosexual thoughts or curiosities? Does he/she HAVE to conclude that they are gay? In many schools of thought that is true. If you wonder about it, then you must obviously be gay otherwise you wouldn’t be struggling with it. Well, what if the struggle is about staying pure sexually, gay or straight?
The bible also talks about God giving us over to our “evil” desires when we constantly choose our own way vs. his. He’s not going to force us into anything. That whole free will thing. So the more we immerse ourselves in our sin, the harder it is to hear God’s truth in it. Similarly, the more poor choices I make about eating harmful foods to excess, the harder it is for me to resist those choices that are killing me. I just blow off what God is asking of me. The pull has become so strong to the harmful behavior, I don’t even know what the right thing is anymore. I know this is AMAZINGLY simplistic. And someone can correct me or inform me but seriously, if you’re a girl and would rather play sports than dolls, that doesn’t mean you are a lesbian or were born to be male. It just means you’d rather play sports than dolls.
As far as activism goes, one thing I can understand as to why some want to define marriage or sexuality in a sense, is that if we start legislating sexual preference as inborn, then its a slippery slope to an adult man saying his sexual preference for a young boy is inborn and not criminal. It sounds extreme but there are organized groups out there trying to get that sort of thinking mainstreamed.
I know there is a whole other spectrum to this–people who think they were born as the wrong gender; individuals who wrestle with their identity in any number of ways and for any number of reasons. And I am SO uneducated in that area, I’ll stop before saying something stupid.
But when it comes down to how you treat people, it’s pretty simple. Love them. How do we do that? Treat them like the precious creation God says they are. PEOPLE matter to God and therefore should matter to us.
And now I’m going to ice down my neck and shoulder which are VERY p.o.’d at me for typing all this. OUUUUUUUUUCH!!
May 6, 2008 at 1:33 am |
I struggle with this too. For me, it comes down to two things: God made us in his image. If I believe that homosexuality is not a choice (which I do) then I have to believe that God made homosexuals homosexual. The second belief I have is one that Scott discussed during the “After Life” series (the night he talked about who goes to heaven and who goes to h*ll). To paraphrase him, it’s none of our business, really. That’s the bottom line. If I’m focused on what God would have me do with my life, the only judgment I should make is if homosexuality is right for me. I know that implies it’s a choice, which I didn’t intend, but hopefully the bigger picture emerges – I am responsible for myself. God will ask me how I used my gifts and talents. If I’m focusing on someone else’s life or sins, I’m not being faithful to God.
This is my view. I agree, love is love. And God’s love doesn’t discriminate. We shouldn’t either. I think it was a true blessing that your mother and her partner showed you a positive, loving relationship and raised you to be the great man you are.
May 6, 2008 at 2:50 am |
Wow… I’ve been waiting to see a post from you and you come up with this subject. Very interesting…I won’t get too wordy on you since I really don’t know you very well. I look at this way, if you have someone that loves you, no matter what, who cares if they are gay, black, white etc. People discriminate on all levels, on all subjects. As you get older you will see that it really just doesn’t matter. The outside package is just that, it’s whats on the inside that really counts and it’s even better when you can see it radiating on the outside. I should be at the Orchard on 1st Wednesday, will you be there?
June 8, 2008 at 10:21 pm |
You asked “why would someone choose a lifestyle that would bring on hatred, contempt, separation from family, bigotry, and violence”. I’ve chosen to be a Christian and have faced all of those (except violence) because of it. Gays are not the only ones who face that. Sadly there is enough hate to go around for everyone.
I have a cousin who is gay and we get along fine. He lives in California and visits us once a year. I look at him as my cousin, not as a gay person.
Glad I found your blog dude! Heavy discussion!! My blog is just full of nonsense!
July 11, 2008 at 12:59 am |
Wow, you’ve had some great posts on here! I love the wisdom and insight that Doug and Joni gave.
I do agree with you that it is difficult to sort through which OT laws we follow and which ones we don’t. I’d encourage you to read the Message Remix. It takes you through the entire Bible and parallels books from the OT and NT that deal with similar topics and discusses the biggest difference between the two: law vs Jesus. It’s a great version!
Anyways, I have been raised in a Christian home since the day I was born but over and over again I was taught to ‘hate the sin, not the person’ and that applied to every sin. I love that my parents were such an incredible example to me of loving others, regardless of their past, looks, or sin. I do believe that the Bible talks specifically about homosexual sin, just as it discusses many other sins, as Doug mentioned. I also do believe it is a choice. You should also read Genesis 2 where it tells the creation of man and woman.
Joni raised a great point that just because your friend wanted to play with so called ‘boy stuff’ doesn’t mean she was destined to be gay. That kind of mindset is and has been damaging to children drawn to the so called ‘wrong’ toys or colors or clothes. Maybe it started with infants being called the wrong gender and mothers getting mad
As a science nerd, I also look at homosexuality from a biology point of view. Not to sound crude but, look at the parts. The fact that everything works so well…sex, conception, everything, to me shows God’s incredible design for man and woman to be together…to be one.
The thing that I hate so much is that the church has decided to lessen so many other sins and single out those people with any sort of homosexual tendencies. It is so sad to me that so many have fallen away from the Greatest Commandment: to love. My hope and prayer is that I will show unconditional love to whomever I meet, no matter the sin, and that through that, they will come to know Christ and He will reveal the sin in their lives to them. We need to stop being the ones to point the finger and instead just love and let God in his own awesome way show us our sin.
January 27, 2009 at 11:46 pm |
A great topic. I have always been intrigued by this topic myself. I just can’t decide what Truth is in regards to homosexuality. this post and the subsequent comments have greatly aided me.
The main arguments and my responses:
1) To hate, or not to hate.
- That’s easy, not to hate, always. OF COURSE love everybody. We are all God’s people, and we all need each other to be happy.
2) Where did the rules on the number of spouses change?
- To me, it seems to have changed somewhere between Adam and Eve and those you noted, and then back again somewhere in between those you noted and now. I don’t think God ever intended for men to have several wives. As we can see from Abram, Hagar, and Sarai, it is not the healthiest of situations.
3) God can change His mind on things.
- I’m not sure that God has a mind to change. God just…is. Simply because we as an individual or a collective group have learned something and see it in a different view or a view closer to the truth, doesn’t mean that God has changed something. All it really means is that we have made progress or regressed.
4) If homosexuality is a choice, why would anyone choose it and all that comes with it?
- Firstly, there are societies in which homosexuality is not looked down upon. So, that can’t be a valid argument. Secondly, the defense that Christian choose similarly difficult prosecution is also invalid.
Pete, you mirrored Reuben’s question and asked why you would choose to be a Christian if you had to go through what Christians go through(which we should really rejoice because it can make us better and stronger, like it says in the Book of James). Well, I’d safely assume that you chose to be a Follower of Christ because you believe that His teachings are Truth. Similarly, homosexuals believe that they prefer the same sex as far as sexual relationships go. That is not to say they are right or wrong; it just explains their choice.
5) Lisa, you said that if you believe that homosexuality is NOT a choice then you have to believe that God made them that way.
- It is hard to argue the latter until the former argument has been agreed upon. I mean, you technically CAN, as in nobody is stopping you. But the latter won’t get through since it depends on the former.
6) Joni and Jen adequately cleared up the “wrong toys” argument.
Until now, my view has depended upon the theory that the vast majority homosexual parents would not be able to create a balanced household because they are of the same sex. However, I am not really sure how to argue that theory. I could do a mass survey and simply rely on the stats, but that would be horrible insulting and outrageous. What I am left with is a simple observational study of men and women. It comes to my attention that there are a myriad of degrees of femininity and masculinity. So it is extremely difficult for me to argue that there needs to be a balance of emotions in any relationship, especially where multiple relationships are formed. I suppose the best argument I would have is that if you put all of those degrees on a giant circle, the most healthy relationships are usually between two people opposite the circle.
On top of that potential argument is the very last point that was made by Jen. It made me glad that I read to the bottom. She made a simple observation of the way God made our bodies. I was upset with myself that I did not realize how solid of an argument that is. Combined with my previous point on healthy relationships, I think that is my current position on homosexuality: 1) It seems to me that a heterosexual relationship is healthier for both the couple and any children. 2) It seems that God intended a man to be with a woman physically.
But the most important rule: LOVE!